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Post by jammybastard on Jun 10, 2013 20:12:52 GMT -5
"absolute power corrupts absolutely"
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Post by DannyA on Jun 10, 2013 20:17:41 GMT -5
See, I would think making a pact with Satan would be number one. I'm offended that you would even say that. There are thousands of patriotic citizens that are risking their lives to help protect this country. And not all of them are privy to the extent this scandal runs. They are doing it because they love this country. Making a pact with satan is a stupid and ignorant thing to say. I understand your point of view and perhaps I worded that poorly. But again, all these people, elected or not, are sworn to uphold the constitution, not use it as toilet paper -- or worse, as some sort of reason to justify their lawbreaking.
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Post by henchman on Jun 11, 2013 0:01:00 GMT -5
Well, then I guess we should just stop it all. And wait for the next 9/11 to happen.
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Post by nycbiscuit on Jun 11, 2013 0:25:38 GMT -5
There's no guarantee that any of this will stop the next 9/11. Odds are there will be more terrorist attacks regardless.
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Post by jammybastard on Jun 11, 2013 7:40:17 GMT -5
Well, then I guess we should just stop it all. And wait for the next 9/11 to happen. ah, that old excuse...which is complete bullshit. this country survived Pearl Harbor, Oklahoma City, etc... you can't prevent all terrorist attacks, you can only survive them. the problem is that it violates the Constitution. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_ConstitutionSo what's more important? Potentially surviving a terrorist attack, or abandoning the Constitution of the United States?
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Post by DannyA on Jun 11, 2013 8:46:24 GMT -5
Well, then I guess we should just stop it all. And wait for the next 9/11 to happen. We had plenty of warning about 9/11 without the Patriot Act or this NSA nonsense.
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Post by boots on Jun 11, 2013 9:50:45 GMT -5
SO I just have to say that being close to people who have dedicated a good part of their lives to this sort of work, you guys have it wrong. Its not that easy, or that black and white. There are a lot of smart, dedicated, good people who "spy" and gather "intelligence" for a living. They work in the shadows protecting this country, our interests (whether or not we know what they are) and saving lives. To tarbrush them with the whole "making a deal with Satan" seems too simplistic.
Anyone wonder if this guy is a little off his nut? Glory seeker, fame hound?
My father kept secrets from my mother for 35 years until his unit was declassified. I don't think that makes him a bad person, a bad husband, or necessarily more patriotic than anyone else, and he'd tell you he was just doing his job and upholding the promises he'd made.
And he'll be the first to tell you we- meaning the citizens of this fair land - KNOW NOTHING about what intelligence gets up to and all of the near misses, and narrowly averted missile launches, and rough escapes. He'd also tell you The Bay of Pigs was a big deal because it was leaked- there were many more incidents that were far graver that we never knew about. Is that a bad thing? Maybe, or maybe there would have been unprecedented upheaval, world markets crashing, delicate diplomatic negotiations shelved, and world war three if everything was revealed.
We'll never know.
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Post by nycbiscuit on Jun 11, 2013 10:20:14 GMT -5
I don't think anyone is suggesting that we not monitor terrorists or suspicious activity. I think people are drawing the line when these officials in the shadows start to collect personal and private data on the entire population of the world without cause.
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Post by boots on Jun 11, 2013 10:32:22 GMT -5
But that's the thing, they've been doing it for fifty years, and thanks to the Patriot Act can do so across new platforms, for which the law had not yet been defined, and with impunity.
I guess I don't get how this is news.
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Post by henchman on Jun 11, 2013 10:51:11 GMT -5
Well, then I guess we should just stop it all. And wait for the next 9/11 to happen. ah, that old excuse...which is complete bullshit. this country survived Pearl Harbor, Oklahoma City, etc... you can't prevent all terrorist attacks, you can only survive them. No, it's not bullshit. And yes, you can prevent them. And you assume that just because we don't hear about every single foiled plot, that these programs don't help. Just like people who bitch about their constitutional rights being violatedbecause of airport searches. People think it's over the top,when in reality, they have no idea the kind of things that have been caught and prevented, because its not made public. My wife worked in airport security, and I can tell you, they catch things on a daily basis. And this absolute bullshit about how preventing terrorist attacks is abandoning the constitution makes me sick. What a load of bullshit. Just irk the asshoels who use it to defend their bullshit right to own weapons designed to kill as many people a s they can in as short a period possible, Fuck them. I'm sick of these ignorant cavegronks. This isn't the 1700's. Golive on a deserted island, with all the guns and weapons you want, without any kind of government? I am quite happy that the government is keeping tracks on terrorist and hate groups in this country. It doesn't infringe on my happiness and daily freedom at all. Those who say it does, are idiotic, conspiracy theory morons. What does infringe on my happiness is having to be scared about going to big public events, in case there is a terrorist attack, because some asshat thinks its ok to divulge classified secrets to the public.
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Post by henchman on Jun 11, 2013 10:59:00 GMT -5
I don't think anyone is suggesting that we not monitor terrorists or suspicious activity. I think people are drawing the line when these officials in the shadows start to collect personal and private data on the entire population of the world without cause. And how do you expect for them to monitor them, without be allowed to check phone records? In think its pretty fucking obvious they are doing this with people who are in contact with know terrorists. For example. Lets say you work at a store. And at this store, unbeknownst to you, someone worked there who is part of a right or left wing militia, being investigated by the NSA. Now, this person sends you a text, for whatever reason, asking About next weeks work schedule. So, now, a red flag is placed on your phone number, and the NSA, IMO rightfully so, starts to monitor your in and outgoings calls. Not listening in, simply looking at who you are calling, To see if you are a member of this group being investigated. Chances are, they will pretty quickly learn that you are simply a colleague of this person, and that's the end of that.
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Post by DannyA on Jun 11, 2013 11:04:23 GMT -5
Boots, I'm not saying there's no need for intelligence. What I consider a deal with the devil is the wholesale abandonment of the fourth amendment just because they can. That's a dangerous road to travel down. As noted, we've staved off numerous attacks (and could have prevented 9/11) with our intelligence services. Again, it doesn't justify intercepting everything law-abiding citizens do, because the constitution prohibits that.
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Post by DannyA on Jun 11, 2013 11:05:04 GMT -5
and hench, to compare that violation of the fourth amendment to gun nuts' willful misinterpretation of the second amendment is a strawman argument.
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Post by henchman on Jun 11, 2013 11:23:38 GMT -5
Boots, I'm not saying there's no need for intelligence. What I consider a deal with the devil is the wholesale abandonment of the fourth amendment just because they can. That's a dangerous road to travel down. As noted, we've staved off numerous attacks (and could have prevented 9/11) with our intelligence services. Again, it doesn't justify intercepting everything law-abiding citizens do, because the constitution prohibits that. There's a big difference between looking at phone numbers that have been in contact with suspicious people, and intercepting what law-abiding citizens do. If you can't see the difference,there's not much else to discuss. I think it beats having numerous random foreign and homegrown terrorist attacks. Maybe we should get rid of police as well.
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Post by henchman on Jun 11, 2013 11:25:14 GMT -5
and hench, to compare that violation of the fourth amendment to gun nuts' willful misinterpretation of the second amendment is a strawman argument. No it's not. It's the exact same thing.
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