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Post by Darren on Jun 10, 2013 12:29:22 GMT -5
I think the question is "Do we, the people, deserve to know that this shit is going on?" And if we can't rely on our government to tell us, then guys like Snowden are necessary martyrs, for lack of a better term.
Is he a traitor to his country? No.
Maybe you feel differently, but I consider the FBI, CIA, NSA, et al to be evil entities. When they aren't up to no good, they're fucking up something really simple, or flat-out refusing to interact with one another for the greater good of the country. They don't give a flying fuck about us, we are just as much a target of their clandestine operations as the Taliban or the Russkies.
Are we better off knowing? Yes.
And no.
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Post by solikecandy on Jun 10, 2013 12:40:55 GMT -5
The constitution is the highest law of the land and this is clearly breaking it. There's no argument about that; it's simple fact. Just because congress shit themselves in 2001 and passed the patriot act (ha) doesn't make it legal. It's like if a state passed a law saying "go ahead and kill people, it's OK." Oh wait, Florida did that. Exactly. And most of Congress passed the Patriot Act without reading it, and we're all paying for it now. And D's right, the FBI, NSA, et al. have been violating the Constitution for years, using highly illegal methods to do their dirty work. It's time someone outed them. |
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Post by boots on Jun 10, 2013 13:11:07 GMT -5
Some would argue the secrecy of these organizations has saved more lives than they have endangered.
The guy shouldn't have gone to work for the NSA if he didn't like keeping secrets. To take the matter into his own hands was very foolish and could be detrimental to the nation.
They've been watching you your whole life, before we had cameras everywhere and carried GPS tracking devices in our pockets they had other ways of keeping tabs on citizens and non citizens. Arguably even more intrusive and grease ball in nature than just looking at electronic data.
We don't get the big picture. We're not meant to. Yes its insulting and would appear to fly in the face of everything we want to believe about ourselves and our fair nation, but the truth, if there is a "truth", is very complicated.
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Post by Darren on Jun 10, 2013 13:47:30 GMT -5
That's the thing, truth has become subjective.
How can you build, or maintain, any sort of foundation of order if there is no absolute truth?
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Post by boots on Jun 10, 2013 14:33:01 GMT -5
I would argue it always has been.
Jesus and the disciples, Michelangelo, Salem witch trials, Viet Nam, 911.
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Post by solikecandy on Jun 10, 2013 14:38:03 GMT -5
Some would argue the secrecy of these organizations has saved more lives than they have endangered. Not those who have been the innocent victims of their tactics. When countries start passing knee-jerk laws, more innocent people end up going to prison than we know either. We are not just talking about secrecy here, but basic rights. When we start talking about the elimination of the need for warrants, The Miranda Rights, etc., we are heading down a very slippery slope. When you start giving Federal Law Enforcement carte blanche, all of our rights are at risk. In another thread, we wondered that the ACLU might do. Here we go. www.aclu.org/blog/national-security-technology-and-liberty/aclu-seeks-secret-court-opinions-authorizing-nsas-mass |
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Post by Hazza on Jun 10, 2013 14:39:59 GMT -5
None of will ever know the "truth". Shit, the people running the intelligence community don't know the "truth". It's a global chess game that started decades ago and, as boots said, is extremely complicated and has helped save more lives domestically than anyone knows. It's corrupt, ugly and terrifying. But a necessary evil at this point.
That being said, I'm glad this guy blew the whistle just so that these countries get a reality check and know that WE know at least part of what is going on.
Hero or traitor? Who cares. It's not going to stop.
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Post by boots on Jun 10, 2013 14:55:24 GMT -5
Its the old adage what changes remains the same.
This is exactly what we were doing in the mid fifties, that's half a decade ago, only then it was all based on surveillance, real time, in person, and lesser technologies, but the data was being captured and analyzed, shit, that's all the NSA does really.
I think this guy blew it, whether or not he came out for the right reasons, he still blew it. He made the assumption that what he knew and what he could tell would have no ramifications than to blow a whistle, well we'll never know, but he could have really done harm in his naivety.
And believe me, I'm not advocating for a corruption of our civil rights, but I would merely argue that we feel a certain entitled sense about them, when in fact, we don't really have them to begin with. I mean seriously, get yourself on the radar screen and watch how fast things start to look like Darren's example of Nazi Germany.
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Post by DannyA on Jun 10, 2013 15:22:37 GMT -5
As I understand he hasn't actually released any classified docs, correct? Just told the world that the program exists. Or did I miss something?
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Post by henchman on Jun 10, 2013 17:13:12 GMT -5
As I understand he hasn't actually released any classified docs, correct? Just told the world that the program exists. Or did I miss something? If you work for the CIA, it's not your right to make decisions about leaking stuff you think is or isn't right. He's a traitor. He betrayed the trust bestowed upon him, by the CIA. You don't join the army, if you don't like being involved with killing people. Here's what the company he worked for had to say about it: "In a statement released Sunday, Booz Allen Hamilton said Snowden had worked for the company for less than three months. The report that he had leaked American secrets was "shocking" and if true, "represents a grave violation of the code of conduct and core values of our firm,". |
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Post by DannyA on Jun 10, 2013 17:58:32 GMT -5
what are the "core values" of a spying firm, one wonders.
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Post by henchman on Jun 10, 2013 18:13:43 GMT -5
what are the "core values" of a spying firm, one wonders. well, not having your employees leak sensitive information would be number one. |
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Post by DannyA on Jun 10, 2013 18:43:37 GMT -5
what are the "core values" of a spying firm, one wonders. well, not having your employees leak sensitive information would be number one. See, I would think making a pact with Satan would be number one. |
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Post by Hazza on Jun 10, 2013 18:57:46 GMT -5
well, not having your employees leak sensitive information would be number one. See, I would think making a pact with Satan would be number one. I'm offended that you would even say that. There are thousands of patriotic citizens that are risking their lives to help protect this country. And not all of them are privy to the extent this scandal runs. They are doing it because they love this country. Making a pact with satan is a stupid and ignorant thing to say. |
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Post by Darren on Jun 10, 2013 19:38:08 GMT -5
While it's an admirable concept, I think "doing it because they love this country" is naive. I mean, that may be your reason for wanting to join the army when you;re 18, but when you join the secret arm of the FBI, CIA, NSA, or the military, there is a certain desensitization to the blurring of certain lines that is mandatory.
There are certain necessary evils that really are evil...but for the greater good, or so you are told. Thing is, it is not always for OUR good, but for those calling the shots.
I think what these scandals do most of all is challenge our long-held belief that our government and intelligence entities hold themselves to a higher standard of operation.
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